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Rant No. 2: Why do we say, "Send me a mail", when we mean, "Send me an email"?
Vedant Varma Just a thought...are the two any different these days?
15 minutes ago
Ramesh Prabhu Very different, Vedant. "Mail" is the collective term for "post", all the letters addressed to you, for instance.
mail
–noun
...1.
letters, packages, etc., that are sent or delivered by means of the postal system: Storms delayed delivery of the mail.
2.
a single collection of such letters, packages, etc., as sent or delivered: to open one's mail; to find a bill in the mail; The mail for England was put on the noon plane.
3.
Also, mails. the system, usually operated or supervised by the national government, for sending or delivering letters, packages, etc.; postal system: to buy clothes by mail.
4.
a train, boat, etc., as a carrier of postal matter.
5.
electronic mail; e-mail.
So it is correct to say, "Let me check my mail" if you are going to log on to Gmail, for instance, and access your in-box.
But to say, "Send me a mail" — that's just horrible.
–noun
...1.
letters, packages, etc., that are sent or delivered by means of the postal system: Storms delayed delivery of the mail.
2.
a single collection of such letters, packages, etc., as sent or delivered: to open one's mail; to find a bill in the mail; The mail for England was put on the noon plane.
3.
Also, mails. the system, usually operated or supervised by the national government, for sending or delivering letters, packages, etc.; postal system: to buy clothes by mail.
4.
a train, boat, etc., as a carrier of postal matter.
5.
electronic mail; e-mail.
So it is correct to say, "Let me check my mail" if you are going to log on to Gmail, for instance, and access your in-box.
But to say, "Send me a mail" — that's just horrible.
10 minutes ago
Like ·2 people
Sunil John Valentine Sonawane To Ramesh: Because that is the default means of communication...even that is changing what with Online Messengers, Mobile SMSing, social sites wall communication (Facebook, Twitter) etc. Incidentally...mail viz. India Post has become dysfunctional, in Gurgaon at least...no card posted by me has reached it's destination!!
9 minutes ago
Ramesh Prabhu Sunil: I am talking about NOT using bad English: please read "How to write PLAIN English".
7 minutes ago
Saurav Sen @Ramesh: Sad though, the commoditisation of the English language has long loosened the grip of Wren & Martins, Fowlers of even the Oxford or Chambers. Have been witness to the gradually expanding spectrum of "acceptability" of just anything, as long as the target audience gets to comprehend the message/expression. American English, Queen's English, Hinglish, SMS lingo, colloquialisms have all entered the common melting pot of monetisation. If there was any left, the advent of social media has hammered the last nail into the coffin. I say sad, because I wonder if the generations to come would ever get to learn good English, EVER!
Sunil John Valentine Sonawane To Ramesh and Saurav: The conflict between the old school and the new generation will persist. Meanwhile, we need to also recognize evolution of the English language; e.g. new words are formed using hyphens, then after a few decades the hyp...hen disappears and Oxford and Websters accord recognition to it; illustrations: aircraft, bandwagon, cooeprative (also co-operative) etc. which were hyphenated in the past. In the corporate world communications, "email", "mail" and "note" are used interchangeably in formal business communications. What was bad English when we are young, viz. "I'm good" instead of "I'm fine" has become okay today and might become recognised by Oxford and Websters down the time-line!!
22 hours ago
Ramesh Prabhu Valid point, Sunil. Language will, and must, evolve to keep pace with progress. I am all for it. And I am also all for going by what the standard dictionaries say.
But "send me A mail"? I am not at all for it.
But "send me A mail"? I am not at all for it.
22 hours ago
Sunil John Valentine Sonawane Looks like there's agreement about accepting new English words for formal business and journalistic use provided that it is endorsed by well known dictionaries e.g.Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary (OALD), Websters and Chambers.
21 hours ago
Ramesh Prabhu Of course, Sunil. But "send me A mail"? Never. :-)
21 hours ago
Sunil John Valentine Sonawane To Ramesh: Never; incorrect grammar!! I'm only talking about WORDS... not syntax. By the way, who or what standard beside Wren and Martin are the final authority on English language syntax?
21 hours ago
Ramesh Prabhu I use the Macmillan English Dictionary for Advanced Learners at work; at home, I refer/defer to Chambers. A good online dictionary is Dictionary.com.
21 hours ago
Tania Sarkar the 'e-mail' factor!!! :)
2 hours ago
AND THIS CONVERSATION FROM GMAIL BUZZ:
Noyon Jyoti Parasara - is "email me" correct?
Shalini Sen - Isn't it "send me an email" or "email it to me"?
Ramesh Prabhu - Shalini and Noyon: I prefer Shalini's options, but "email me" is colloquially correct on the analogy of "ring me" ("phone me").
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Ramesh Prabhu Rant No. 3: Why do we say, "I am tensed" or "I am tensed up" when we mean, "I am tense"?
- Samarpita Samaddar likes this.
Samarpita Samaddar Because some of us live between present and past? ;) ha ha ha
26 minutes ago · Like · 2 people
Sunil John Valentine Sonawane Indish or Indlish
Sunil John Valentine Sonawane Indish or Indlish
about an hour ago
Ramesh Prabhu Yes, Sunil, and BAD English.
about an hour ago
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Ramesh Prabhu Rant No. 4: Why do we say "one of my friend...", when we should say "one of my friends..."?
- Samarpita Samaddar and Smitha Prasanna like this.
Sharon George list of ur pet peeves?
2 hours ago
Ramesh Prabhu Yes, Sharona. Go to http://goo.gl/N5XuJ for Nos. 1 to 3. :-)
2 hours ago · Like · 1 person
Medini Mangala can u believe it... i was actually waiting for rant no. 4 ... argh
about an hour ago · Like · 1 person
Paromita Chakraborty Know what Sir, once every year we should have these updates from you... just to brush up on our English :-) thank you.
ALSO READ: "50 RANTS TO MAKE YOU THINK ABOUT BAD ENGLISH VS GOOD ENGLISH".
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Ramesh Prabhu Rant No. 5: Why do we say "12 noon" and 12 midnight" when "noon" and "midnight" will suffice? (A Bangalore Mirror news report yesterday referred to "12 midnight".)
- Sujith Mohan, Sreemoyee Dutta and Samarpita Samaddar like this.
6 hours ago
Vidya Nayak i suppose we say 12 noon, so if someone has missed out hearing the first part let them hear the second.
actually cant think of any other wacky reason
actually cant think of any other wacky reason
6 hours ago
12 Noon and 12 Midnight are required when denoting that precise time because of the following:
A. Noon & Midnight by themselves are interpreted as a broad band of time not precisely 12 pm and 12 am respectively.
B. Many people get confused ...if they see "12 am" and "12 pm" as they are not sure if it is midnight or noon hence they are avoided.
A. Noon & Midnight by themselves are interpreted as a broad band of time not precisely 12 pm and 12 am respectively.
B. Many people get confused ...if they see "12 am" and "12 pm" as they are not sure if it is midnight or noon hence they are avoided.
5 hours ago
Sunil: Here's the definition of "noon" from Dictionary.com --
NOON
–noun
1. midday.
...2. twelve o'clock in the daytime.
And the definition from Macmillan:
Noon: twelve o'clock in the middle of the day
MIDNIGHT (from Dictionary.com)
–noun
the middle of the night; twelve o'clock at night.
And the definition from Macmillan:
Midnight: twelve o'clock at night
So I don't buy the argument that "12 Noon and 12 Midnight are required when denoting that precise time".
I also don't buy the argument that "many people get confused if they see 12 am and 12 pm". Are these people educated but illiterate? (That's another pet peeve of mine, by the way: What's the point of being educated if you're illiterate?)
NOON
–noun
1. midday.
...2. twelve o'clock in the daytime.
And the definition from Macmillan:
Noon: twelve o'clock in the middle of the day
MIDNIGHT (from Dictionary.com)
–noun
the middle of the night; twelve o'clock at night.
And the definition from Macmillan:
Midnight: twelve o'clock at night
So I don't buy the argument that "12 Noon and 12 Midnight are required when denoting that precise time".
I also don't buy the argument that "many people get confused if they see 12 am and 12 pm". Are these people educated but illiterate? (That's another pet peeve of mine, by the way: What's the point of being educated if you're illiterate?)
4 hours ago
Medini Mangala sirie: breathe in... breathe out...
4 hours ago · Like · 2 people
Sunil John Valentine Sonawane Thanks Ramesh...I know, you know, but some junta don't know..therefore you do a Bangalore Mirror!!
4 hours ago
Sunil John Valentine Sonawane Sorry...wrote too soon...didn't click on "See More"....if newspapers were distributed only to well educated people, their circulation would plummet drastically!!
3 hours ago
Ramesh Prabhu Sunil: Newspapers are for EVERYBODY who can read and is interested in reading them. No general newspaper wants to be known as one read by only "well-educated people". My point is the one I raised earlier: "What's the point of being educated if you're illiterate?" :-)
3 hours ago
Ramesh Prabhu In fact, I have a Reading Room post with the headline: "What's the point of being educated if you're illiterate?" http://goo.gl/XtZuu
3 hours ago
Sunil John Valentine Sonawane I'm with you in your "literate but not educated" rant (been lamenting about it since my school days). Let's try and design an "Education Quotient" Test...ideas welcome from all who see this.
3 hours ago Like · 1 person
Ramesh Prabhu Medini: Re your "breathe in... breathe out..." advice. Thanks.
Don't worry, though, because Sunil and I (we go back a long way -- college -- 1975-76) love a good argument, as you can see. :-)
Don't worry, though, because Sunil and I (we go back a long way -- college -- 1975-76) love a good argument, as you can see. :-)
AND THIS GMAIL BUZZ CONVERSATION:
dipankar paul - Reforming the world... one rant at a time...
But, if 'chill pill' and 'TTYL' can make their way into the dictionary (due to repeated usage), do you think the time's up for 'noon' and 'midnight'?
But, if 'chill pill' and 'TTYL' can make their way into the dictionary (due to repeated usage), do you think the time's up for 'noon' and 'midnight'?
Ramesh Prabhu - Dipankar: For "12 noon" and "12 midnight", you mean? Never. Except, perhaps, in an Indlish dictionary, to be used by Indlish newspapers.
Uffff!!! (here's another one for RP Sir) I can't believe what I just saw on your blog. You have some energy to keep up the momentum of the argument. But yes... I agree with your 'educated but illiterate' comment. And it definitely irritates when people say, 'I read the newspaper today morning' instead of 'this morning'. Way to go Sir!!! Need to clear up the rants from Indlish...
ReplyDeleteIt started from FACEBOOK,went on with a one on one battle between Ramesh Mhanth and Sunil,and finally ended with the 12 noon and midnight argument!Nice arguments!
ReplyDeleteWhile you all are fighting over good and bad can anyone explain when we use the word 'viz' and why as without knowing that I'm out of the fight, as it is a frequently used word.
ReplyDeleteVinay: Here's the entry on "viz" from Wikipedia:
ReplyDeleteViz. (also rendered viz without a full stop) and the adverb videlicet are used as synonyms for "namely", "that is to say", and "as follows".
Viz. is an abbreviation of videlicet, which itself is a contraction from Latin of "videre licet" meaning "it is permitted to see."
Both forms introduce a specification or description of something stated earlier; this is often a list preceded by a colon (:). Although both forms survive in English, viz. is far more common than videlicet.
EXAMPLES:
* The main point of his speech, viz. that our attitude was in fact harmful, was not understood.
* "My grandfather had four sons who became scientists, viz.: Thomas, John, Benjamin and Josiah."
In contradistinction to i.e. and e.g., viz. is used to indicate a detailed description of something stated before, and when it precedes a list of group members, it implies (near) completeness. Example:
* The noble gases, viz., helium, neon, argon, xenon, krypton, and radon, show a non-expected behaviour when exposed to this new element.